Old Roar Gill landslide questions

Here are some questions and answers around the Old Roar Gill landslip in February 2024. We will update this page with more questions and answers when they are received.

Q1. Widely publicised survey which suggests that the origins of the landslip started on private land: What is the private land that HBC announcements and documents refer to as the point on origin of the landslip? We ask that at the meeting you share details about when was the survey carried out and the analysis of the survey. The BDR graphs which were included in the Emergency Prohibition order served on the 21 February and shared again via email on the 22 February, are impossible to read; include no description or analysis of what is depicted; and the Housing Renewal officers who handed the documents were not able to answer any questions about it. What assumptions were made in the landslip modelling from the BDR (such as modelling a vertical slope)?

A1. The private land referred to was the gardens of the directly affected properties.

The survey was carried out on 19 February 2024 by BDR.

The initial survey was provided by BDR and circulated as received by the council as requested as soon as possible. We apologise that the printed version corrupted and agree we should have provided further context to this initial survey.

BDR have subsequently clarified that the graphs shown at the beginning of their report are a general representational of a slip plane, it's not an actual representation of what occurred in this instance.
 
The council was also advised by BDR at the time that a further Geotechnical survey would need to be carried out and this would involve works on the private land.

This is not something the council could authorise and therefore residents were advised to contact their own insurance companies to carry out these surveys.
 
Our immediate concern was for the safety of the residents and the prohibition orders were issued following further landslips and observations by Housing Renewal Officers

 A Housing Renewal officer contacted BDR to clarify information about the risk to the properties and was advised that there was a risk from further slip circle failures occurring until the soil within the slope reaches its safe angle of repose. This together with evidence from Housing Renewal's site visit informed the decision to issue the EPOs.
Other immediate actions as part of initial response:

15/02/24

• Made area safe - closed routes onto footpath
• UKPN and EDF notified
• Southern water notified
• Building control notified

16/02/24

• First letter to residents from Chief Executive - warning (as required by law to affected properties)

19/02/24

• Site visit with BDR
• Second letter to residents
• Tree surgeon contacted.
  

Q2. Maintenance of the Gill: who has the contract for Gill maintenance and what does the maintenance involve and with what frequency? Are there any reports documenting the maintenance?

A2. Hastings Borough Council manages the land owned by the council in the Gill. Officers inspect the fence line and signage twice a year. The last inspection was September 2023.

The footpath and bridge are East Sussex County Council (ESCC) assets so we are not responsible for inspecting these. Any reporting of cracks in the footpath would have been passed to ESCC.  ESCC Highways confirmed to the council they had not received reports of cracking in the footpath prior to the landslip.

Old Roar Gill is a steep sided wooded gill stream. The gill, or ravine, is owned by Hastings Borough Council. Gill streams form over centuries; water erodes the soft sandstone to form steep sided gills, many of which are heavily wooded. Gills regularly have wet flushes and springs and support distractive flora and fauna due to the unique and undisturbed nature of the habitat.
 
The woodland at Old Roar Gill is identified as ancient woodland, which means it has been in existence since at least 1600 AD.  
The steep slopes of Old Roar Gill prohibit access to manage the habitat. As the habitat is a naturally occurring and evolving ecosystem over centuries there is no specific intervention management required to manage the ancient gill woodland habitat.  
The dense vegetation and the naturally fallen trees in the gill prevent physical access. Fallen and standing deadwood are essential features of the habitat, supporting a range of unique and specialist flora and fauna. The dense vegetation allows the habitat to flourish undisturbed.

Q3. There seem to be a lot of legacy issues with the area surrounding the gill and run off into the gill from further afield, such as new housing developments in the Harrow Lane area, which would have an impact on the landslip and other issues such as pollution, water drainage, subsidence, and so on. Has there been an assessment (such as a geotechnical survey) of the water and resource management issues affecting the gill catchment area and the impact of climate change on existing maintenance arrangements?

A3. We are unaware of any current evidence that supports a link between Harrow Lane developments and other areas and the current landslip at Old Roar Gill.
The Harrow Lane developments have clear conditions as part of their planning permissions for surface water drainage and foul water drainage that must be complied with.

Q4. What plans are being discussed and put in place to stop the advancement of the landslip at Old Roar Gill within the Gill itself? This includes the number and types of surveys (structural, soil, geotechnical, and so on) which are being carried out; other work which would alleviate the flow of water by clearing out the banks and bottom of the waterbed from debris? What are the timescales of these plans? What is the monitoring set up by the Council of the landslip and its development (which agencies are involved; what they are monitoring; how frequently and when is the council going to make any updates on what is being learnt to residents)? Which other authorities (for example, East Sussex County Council), agencies (for example, Environmental Agency), organisations and utilities (for example Southern Water, UKPN) is the council working with right now to find out the reason for the landslip, develop plan of action for slowing down and stopping its progress; and plan for remedial work and longer-term solution for the residents and environment in the area?

A4. The council's insurance company have appointed loss adjusters and geotechnical surveyors. We do not currently have confirmed timescales for their investigations.

The gill is not currently accessible to undertake specialist geo technical monitoring and the council do not have these resources and expertise in house. Officers are undertaking checks of the land and have taken photographs from a safe position. This is to monitor the risk from dangerous trees. It should be noted even if there was an issue identified with the trees, it is unlikely that the council would be in position to action the removal due the site's current inaccessibility.

The lower gill is still very inaccessible, and any work to clear anything would have to be done by hand. The council would intervene if a tree/ item completely blocked the gill. In those situations the only option available is to cut the items up and move them onto the bank. We do not remove organic debris from the areas as these eventually become a habitat for native species.

With regards to actions to stop the advancement of the landslip, any action will need to be informed by the geotechnical surveys, which are required to identify the root cause of the landslip, and, indeed, whether any measures exist to prevent further slippage.

The council informed Southern Water, UKPN, EDF and ESCC of the incident when it happened and they have undertaken any immediate safety measures or checks. Further reviews by those agencies and further investigations may be required. We will update residents with any further information we receive.

Q5. Insurance: why are council representatives continuing to refer to the household insurance policies of affected residents, considering that all HBC representatives have been informed by the residents as early as 16 February that household insurances would not be activated until there is damage to the main properties. At this point in time none of the houses which have been affected have any visible damage. This seems to be a standard clause of household insurances. Even if claims against the insurances can be made if there is damage to the main properties, they will only cover remedial work to strengthen these buildings and will not secure the landslide at the Gill. What insurance does HBC has to cover this and what they have said?

A5. As with all claims involving damage to properties caused by subsidence, landslips, fire or flooding the first port of call is to activate household insurance.

The council has a comprehensive insurance cover to deal with any public liability claims against it, if liability on the part of the council has been established.

Q6. Capability and competence of the council to deal with such emergencies: we have experienced an incredible lack of accountability, responsibility and competence in dealing with the situation (including but not limited to denials that the council is responsible for the Gill; unfounded and untrue claims about the origins of landslip which have been widely publicised; evidence which is ineligible; lack of communication and consideration for the wellbeing of residents and the environment). 

A6. The council's first responsibility is to the safety of residents when responding to an emergency event is our prime concern. The council has attempted to communicate honestly and openly with residents as concerns have arisen whilst trying to act within its powers, information and resources available. We are sorry if this was not perceived to be carried out to expected level and we will review and learn from this experience.

We acknowledge that the emergency and recovery phases of this incident needs to be reviewed. Given this is likely to be a longer incident that the initial emergency response, we will endeavour to communicate more clearly with the households directly affected, and the surrounding community.

Q7a. How far will the Geo survey cover? Kingswood Gate is directly behind the gill and at risk. We need assurance we are not affected by a landslip.
Q7b. Is the opposite bank going to be checked for stability?

A7. The council is currently checking the extent of the survey required with our insurers.

Q8. We just have to wait whilst the landslip moves towards our property and nothing is being done to secure it?

A8. The council will update residents on the outcome of the geotechnical survey.

Q9. Have Orbit Housing been informed as properties in Kingswood Gate are shared ownership and the gardens back onto the edge of the gill?

A9. The council will inform Orbit in case they are not aware.

Q10. Which organisation approved the planning consent/authority for houses to be built so close to the edge of the gill?

A10. Hastings Borough Council is the planning authority and approve planning applications for the borough. Planning details can all be found on the Planning Portal accessed through the council's website Simple Search.

These are the some of the relevant applications with the reference number.
HS/70/00953 _ Penhurst Close - 3 Houses
HS/OA/70/00705_ Southfield and Foxcote, Old Roar Gill Road - 30 dwellings
HS/DS/71/00610- Southfield and Foxcote, Old Roar Gill Road - 30 dwellings
 
These developments were built in the seventies and land stability checks were not carried out to the same extent or a condition of planning at that time. The technology we have now as well as knowledge of risk wasn't as clear, and building regulations have been updated. All new development requires Land Stability assessments. 

Q11a. Can a geotechnical survey be requested and the residents pay for it to prevent delay?
Q11b. Why can't the council pay for the geophysical survey?

A11. The council is progressing a geotechnical survey through its insurers to be carried out as soon as possible. Residents can contact their own insurance companies or commission their own surveys if they wish to.

Q12a. Why aren't the drains around the Roundel and surrounding roads cleared of debris to enable rain drainage?
Q12b. If you're concerned with public liability, why can people access the path off Old Roar Road to go 'sightseeing' down at the landslip? An orange barrier is not sufficient.

A12. The council has referred both of these questions to East Sussex County Council (ESCC) Highways as they are responsible for the roads and the footpaths (including the one that has now slipped). ESCC highways installed the barriers.

Information is being sought from ESCC Highways on the frequency and schedule of drain cleaning and clearance in the area.
The ESCC Rights of Way team who are responsible for the footpath have responded that the approach to the landslip from the west via the bridge over the gill is prevented by a Heras fence on the bridge end. Owing to the wide approach with the unfenced woodland boundary alongside it would be difficult to make the path from Old Road Road impenetrable. There is no obvious risk of instability on the gill's west side and it is not felt that there is a significant risk associated with the barrier arrangement from Old Roar Road. However, we will review the situation and consider whether further measures are needed and reinforcing these to prevent access. 

The Rights of Way team also confirmed that they have no record of any reports about the condition of the path having been made to them prior to a report of the major slip on the 15th February. They have asked for any further information about who made the report/s and to where to investigate.

Q13. There was a previous slip in that area and the footpath and fence had to be reinstated. The location was where slip is now and between the footbridge about 7-10 years ago. What are the details of this? Has the footpath been subject to slips previously?

A13. ESCC Rights of Way team confirmed work was undertaken in 2007 to support the path where a localised slip caused the path edge to give way on approach to the bridge. 
The reinstatement of the path involved the construction of a supporting sandbag wall and replacement of a section of post and rail fence.  The bag wall remains in place and appears to have been unaffected by the recent slip.

Q14. How do I monitor landslip rate it moves nearer gas, and so on?

A14. The council has referred this question to the utilities and will update. SGN has gas safety advice on their website.

Q15. What monitoring is being done? I haven't seen anyone.

A15. Someone from the council's parks and open spaces team is visiting the site daily. They are taking photos of the site and updating the council's taskforce. Because of where they are doing this visual monitoring, they may not be visible from properties.

Q16. Has Southern Water investigated the situation?

A16. Southern Water have raised a job to survey both foul and surface water sewers in Foxcote and Penhurst Close to assess the condition and connectivity of our assets in the area. Previous visits have been done looking at sewers in the road and the front drives of the affected properties and from that we do not believe that we have any sewers in the rear of the properties affected.

Q17. A resident asked about the erosion of the gill. The drainage from the adjacent roads run into the gill. There is an outlet by waterfall. Previous concrete reinforcement has been put in on the bank. Are you looking at reinforcement at the foot of the waterfall to stop the erosion of the bank? It looks like water leaks in neighbouring roads on the road surfaces such as Ghyllside Avenue.

A17. While some of Southern Water's surface water sewers discharge into the gill, the base of the waterfall would not be our responsibility as this is part of the stream.

Q18.  SW has been putting up cameras recently. No one calls at the house although we have seen people undertaking site visits. What is happening?

A18. SW have not yet started doing any surveys in the area, this may have been Highways carrying out surveys. All SW have done so far has been cover lifting to check the direction of any possible SW assets.

Q19. Question about pipes in the area and a request for SW assets to be checked.

A19. SW do not believe that these are SW assets. All SW drainage goes out to the front of the properties in this street so it was highly unlikely that they were SW. They believe that these are private surface water pipes

Q20.  What is the SW pre-planned work for the gill and how may this affect the landslip situation both practicably and publicly?

A20. This work had been planned for April, or as soon as the weather allows but this has now been put on hold due to safety concerns around the landslide. The work that SW are due to undertake in the Gill will not affect the area around the landslide. They intend to start a lot further downstream to create an access to the manhole that spilled and caused the pollution. This is several hundred metres downstream of the landslide. Once this first section is done SW will meet our contractor to assess what needs to be done next and also if it is safe to proceed.